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gameguru1360
Senior Member
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well for my setup, I'm going to go with the HC800, but definitely going to do the Big 3. I think if I'm pushing more than 3k watts, then I'll surely need an HO alternator or even a 2nd kinetik battery. I don't want to go overboard in batteries and HO alternators because it's a corolla!
Now if I were driving a 2009 audi A4 or A6, then I'd probably go all out with an HO alternator as well as 1 or 2 higher rated Kinetik batteries plus rolls and rolls of dynamat! I've had my eyes on the bulk pak but noticed that the Mega Pak is available!!
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 07-03-2009 10:15 PM |
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Pioneer~Saturn
Senior Member
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^That's honestly what I'd do...just start off with a decent battery in the rear and upgrade your wiring then see where you stand on voltage during large draws. I think you'll be just fine with what youre doing, go for it.
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| 07-03-2009 11:31 PM |
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audiolife
Member
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Not every high output alt does better than a stocker on output at idle..especially cheaper high output alts that make their power and more power at the higher rpm. An alt also reacts so it is always trailing the load and plays catch up so a GOOD battery/batteries should be teamed up with your alt. Not every 1100 CA battery presents the same load to your alt. A wet cell battery will always be harder to charge than an AGM style battery because of its design and more than likely have many times the resistance than the AGM. An alt can die from charging dead or near dead batteries because it burns out the electronics due to load. This is true regardless if it is a big highoutput alt or a stock alt. You should monitor your batteries to make sure they stay in good condition and so you can tell if they are recieving an ample charge. When you add a second battery it is a good idea to get a good little intelligent charger that has an agm mode that way if your batteries go a little low you can charge them up past 90% and keep them in top shape for longer life..(walmart has good chargers for this 6 amps at under $30). The kinetik HC800 will help but with bigger power you should match up watts to the kinetik model number.They also have a couple new sizes on their site at www.kinetikaudio.com.
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| 07-06-2009 08:45 AM |
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Donsway
Senior Member
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What I don't agree with is having a alt. that is overworked ALL of the time. And I think I remember saying to go with a 120-+ amp alt. so the charge at idle would be great. I'm telling you on what he has he would not go down in volts low enough to get into the batt. range. I just tested this on a 200 amp alt. with 2000 watts RMS and even with bass that hits hard short notes it will not drop into the batts. volts.
With a 70 amp alt. like audiolife said you better get a charger to keep your batts. full after pulling them down everytime a bass song comes on. But I really think the big 3, and one good batt. under the hood would fix his lights without a 2nd batt. in the back to add more load to his very small alt.
What kind of volts do these kinetik batts hold without the eng. running?
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| 07-07-2009 01:31 AM |
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sicaudio
Member
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the resting voltage on a charged kinetic is 14.2 volts. I got 2 sitting here that have been sitting brand new for 6 months in the box that I just tested. AGM batteries are not anything at all the same as a regular battery which has been my point all along. they charge off the alternator with a draw of .50 to 10 amps, thats it. a 10 amp draw on a 70 amp alt is nothing and an HC600 will put out more power all by itself whi;le recieving that small charge thAan the 70 amp alt can produce, it is all chemical science, it doesnt take an alternators full output to charge a battery, if it did then every car on the road would be cooking batteries left and right since no battery in a car can take 100+ amps all the time. the battery resistance has everything to do with it as well, and AGM batteries are measured in milliohms resistance whereas regular batteries are measured in 10's as in 30-50 ohms resistance, and AGM are less than .50 ohms. so as you can see it takes almost nothing to charge them
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| 07-07-2009 01:48 AM |
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audiolife
Member
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RE:
quote:
Originally posted on 07-07-2009 by Donsway
What I don't agree with is having a alt. that is overworked ALL of the time. And I think I remember saying to go with a 120-+ amp alt. so the charge at idle would be great. I'm telling you on what he has he would not go down in volts low enough to get into the batt. range. I just tested this on a 200 amp alt. with 2000 watts RMS and even with bass that hits hard short notes it will not drop into the batts. volts.
With a 70 amp alt. like audiolife said you better get a charger to keep your batts. full after pulling them down everytime a bass song comes on. But I really think the big 3, and one good batt. under the hood would fix his lights without a 2nd batt. in the back to add more load to his very small alt.
What kind of volts do these kinetik batts hold without the eng. running?
Just because an alt can do 200 amps does no mean it puts out good power at idle. In many cases a cheap or bad designed hi output alt puts out less power at idle than a stock alt does at idle. believe it or not. An agm battery is a much easier load than a flooded battery as well. Also an alt does not put out X number of amps of current constantly it has to react so it is always lagging behind (some are faster than others depending on the regulator design) You can over stress an alt butI have ran 2600 watts all old school PPI AM series amps back in the early 90's off a stock 90 amp alt in my escort. Switched to a dual output 120 amp alt to cut down on the dimming. That system had 3 batteries all old school flooded cells. Drove the car around 25k miles a year for 4 years and the engine died before the alts ever did. 120 amps was a HUGE alt for a ford back then too LOL.
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| 07-07-2009 01:56 AM |
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sicaudio
Member
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RE: RE:
quote:
Originally posted on 07-07-2009 by audiolife
Just because an alt can do 200 amps does no mean it puts out good power at idle. In many cases a cheap or bad designed hi output alt puts out less power at idle than a stock alt does at idle. believe it or not. An agm battery is a much easier load than a flooded battery as well. Also an alt does not put out X number of amps of current constantly it has to react so it is always lagging behind (some are faster than others depending on the regulator design) You can over stress an alt butI have ran 2600 watts all old school PPI AM series amps back in the early 90's off a stock 90 amp alt in my escort. Switched to a dual output 120 amp alt to cut down on the dimming. That system had 3 batteries all old school flooded cells. Drove the car around 25k miles a year for 4 years and the engine died before the alts ever did. 120 amps was a HUGE alt for a ford back then too LOL.
very well put.
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| 07-07-2009 02:03 AM |
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Donsway
Senior Member
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We keep going to this but we never said to go HO with this setup, just up the alt. to 120 amps+-. I know that the big 200 ampers sometimes need a smaller pulley to get them to charge at idle like the one I run on mine. But a stock 120 would charge great so that is not what we are talking about here.
We are talking about adding batts. to a 70 amp alt. that is already overloaded. We still don't know what kind of music Game jams to but if it is the same stuff I do then a 70 amp alt. WILL be having to put out max power all of the time and still not keep up. This is without a mids and highs amp that he needs to add to the 1000 watts of bass.
So now to those batts, 12.9-14.2 volts standing. Well reg. batts. hold 12.6 when full so the right way to add a Kinetic would be to run a relay to keep them apart from the lower charged batt. that is up front when the car is not running.
www.caraudiohelp.com/car_audio_electrical_basics/car_audio_electrical_basics.htm
answers.yahoo.com/question/index
www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php
So if you read all that you will see what I have been talking about the batts. fighting if hooked together when the car is not running. So to do a 2nd batt. the RIGHT way you have to have the same batts. both front and back or a relay between them if they are not. With the price of the batt. and relay you are over the price of a alt. that will put out power not just store it. This all goes back to the 70 amp alt. he has and could up cheaper than a 2nd batt. This is so easy to understand if we can just stay talking about it and not all the stuff we keep getting off on. I am saying the alt. is already too small for the load, and adding a 2nd batt. will add to the load and cost if installed the right way will be higher in price than a alt. Audiolife you even say you upped your alt. to a 120 to keep the lights from dimming, that is what I am saying do here if after the big 3 he still has dimming lights. Makes sence right???
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| 07-07-2009 10:21 AM |
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Pioneer~Saturn
Senior Member
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RE: RE:
quote:
Originally posted on 07-07-2009 by audiolife
Just because an alt can do 200 amps does no mean it puts out good power at idle. In many cases a cheap or bad designed hi output alt puts out less power at idle than a stock alt does at idle. believe it or not. An agm battery is a much easier load than a flooded battery as well. Also an alt does not put out X number of amps of current constantly it has to react so it is always lagging behind (some are faster than others depending on the regulator design) You can over stress an alt butI have ran 2600 watts all old school PPI AM series amps back in the early 90's off a stock 90 amp alt in my escort. Switched to a dual output 120 amp alt to cut down on the dimming. That system had 3 batteries all old school flooded cells. Drove the car around 25k miles a year for 4 years and the engine died before the alts ever did. 120 amps was a HUGE alt for a ford back then too LOL.
That's why you get a mechman...my '225 amp' alt does 153 amp at idle and 240+ at higher rpms
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| 07-07-2009 12:04 PM |
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sicaudio
Member
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he has a 70 amp alt that is overworked now because he has no storage ( batteries) so it has to do all the work. In over 30,000 installs, I have never nor will I ever use relays or isolators in a 12 volt system for battery seperation, it is the same ploy they use to sell caps bro. it doesnt make any difference at all. each battery has a dif resistance and will take what it needs . who do you think started the market for those relays in car audio use? the same company that sells alot of other car audio install equipment, STINGER !! they also make caps as well but do they work? hell no and we know that. if you really needed an isolator you can get 1 at any part store or even walmart for about 30-50 $ that is the exact same kind they are selling you but it doesn't have their brand on it. I am not saying they dont do anything or dont help at all. but i have the same 7 yr old hc600 that is in its 4th car and has been way overabused and it has never been used with an isolator ever, nor has it ever created an issue. and if he does the bt60 battery as a main battery all by itself then he wont need 1 anyway. it doesnt say in the product literature that an isolator is required, just that it is recommended to extend the life of the agm battery.
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| 07-07-2009 12:07 PM |
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sicaudio
Member
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120 amp alt for a 96 corolla is an HO alt anything over a stock 70 amp is HO on that car. and they have terrible idle output.
and audiolife upped his because he was running 2600 watts not a measly 1000, and his stock alt w/o AC would have been a 47 amper in the early 90's escort 70 at the most.
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| 07-07-2009 12:08 PM |
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sicaudio
Member
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RE: RE: RE:
quote:
Originally posted on 07-07-2009 by Pioneer~Saturn
That's why you get a mechman...my '225 amp' alt does 153 amp at idle and 240+ at higher rpms
very true but they are very expensive and we both agree he shouldn't need anything more than the big 3 and a good battery added in.
mechmans are an exception but you definately pay for the quality.
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| 07-07-2009 12:15 PM |
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Donsway
Senior Member
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Isolators were used long before Stinger came out, and relays were around even longer. Here is who says to use them and it makes sense and easy to understand why they say to use one or the other.
www.mecp.com/home.asp
I did the isolators back in the early 90s (still have two) but by the late 90s relays had taken the place of isolators because of the 1 or more volt drop to the rear batt. that you don't get with a relay. Relays are the way to go.
Just because you installed 30,000 batts. without one of the two does not make it the right way to do it. With what I do everyday I get to see where people do stuff that works but is not safe. Running grounds is a big one that gets overlooked. Seen more docks that everything works but without a ground that someone though was not needed and just cost more to run. Just because it works does not make it right.
Damn I hoped caps would not be brought up here but since they were here is how I feel about them. They do work for what they are made to do. All you have to do to test this is get a elec. motor like one on your A/C fan and take the cap off or put a bad cap on it. The motor will not start but if you spin the shaft by hand it will start. This is because a cap gives that little bit more power to start the motor and without one the motor will just sit there and hum. So caps work there is no way around it. I have seen test in cars with and without caps and you can see with a cap you have less peaks and drops in the volts. They are only good when used with a already up to par elec. system to smooth everything out. Not to fix anything like so many try to do and that is why so many say they don't work. If use in a car that is already under powered then just like a 2nd batt. you are just adding load not power.
"it doesnt say in the product literature that an isolator is required, just that it is recommended to extend the life of the agm battery." Even Kinetik tells you right there that to make the batts. last longer don't hook them together without a isolator. Do you think they are full of shit when they say this and just trying to push the sells of relays and isolators? NO it is because they did lots of test and found what has been known for as long as batts. have been made that two batts. hooked together will not last as long. Batt. makers have no reason to say this other than it being true.
You say that a 120 amp alt. is a HO for his car.... Well no it is not, a 160 is, a 120 is what most cars have stock. And Audiolife had a 90 amp not a 47 amp alt. when he went up to the 120.
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| 07-08-2009 09:11 AM |
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