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Message Forums Car Stereo Message Forums > > using a cap
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LoudAssGeo
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 using a cap

ok, i am probably about to get some flack here, but we all should be familiar with Derek Lee right? he is the guy from the trouble shooting section of car audio and electronics magazine and the co founder of MOBILE DYNAMICS school. well, he stated in the issue with leno on the cover when addressing a concern of upgrading a stereo in a toyota truck that and i quote " if you dont have a cap GET ONE". my question is why in the world would someone ( who happens to be a car audio expert and the originator of a school for stereo) suggest using a cap and then there is a bunch of guys here that swear against using one. dont yall honestly think that the guy knowes his sh*t? why would someone of his caliber suggest something that is infact branded useless by the people of this forum? feedback please

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New Post 12-20-2006 12:36 PM
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N2Audio
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I'll take a wild guess...

He's involved with a company that makes a lot of money through capacitor sales.

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New Post 12-20-2006 12:41 PM
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LoudAssGeo
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 RE:

quote:
Originally posted on 12-20-2006 by N2Audio
I'll take a wild guess...

He's involved with a company that makes a lot of money through capacitor sales.


well, i thought is back ground consisted of alpine.. but now i think is just with his school and ca&e.

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New Post 12-20-2006 01:02 PM
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Merak
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I could be wrong but maybe a cap would help your bass response. I understand its not a good solution for a weak alternator or battery. but it is a faster source of extra electrons than a battery or alternator.

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New Post 12-20-2006 08:06 PM
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chiefaudiophile
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quote:
Originally posted on 12-20-2006 by N2Audio
I'll take a wild guess...

He's involved with a company that makes a lot of money through capacitor sales.


You got the "He's involved with a company that makes a lot of money" part right. I spent 6000.00 with one of his companies and about 14.00 a year with the other and I would again take his advice on this issue.

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New Post 12-21-2006 09:29 AM
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LoudAssGeo
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 RE:

quote:
Originally posted on 12-21-2006 by chiefaudiophile
You got the "He's involved with a company that makes a lot of money" part right. I spent 6000.00 with one of his companies and about 14.00 a year with the other and I would again take his advice on this issue.

so, why do people down grade caps?

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New Post 12-21-2006 09:35 AM
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chiefaudiophile
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I will leave that question to someone who does.

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New Post 12-21-2006 09:42 AM
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N2Audio
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 RE: RE:

quote:
Originally posted on 12-21-2006 by LoudAssGeo
so, why do people down grade caps?

I only know enough about caps to know I don't want, and certainly don't NEED one.

First and foremost
1) any well-designed amp should have all the internal capacitance it needs.

2) caps are storage devices - there IS no perfect storage device, so by definition, they bleed energy. RMS system voltage WILL be reduced by adding one.

3) many of them are so poorly designed (High/unspecified ESR, "ultra-low" doesn't cut it) they are completely useless.

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New Post 12-21-2006 10:14 AM
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LoudAssGeo
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 RE: RE:

quote:
Originally posted on 12-21-2006 by Shannon
i hear they charge too slow to really contribute anything and pretty much become parasites.

its like putting a cast on your perfectly healthy limb.


it was my understanding that they instantly charged when power was connected.

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New Post 12-21-2006 01:20 PM
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Rudy
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Whether or not they ever help can be debated. If your system never strains the vehicle's ability to power it, they can't possibly help. Therefore "if you don't have one get one" has to be marketing hype. The only reasonable statement would be "IF you have a problem, a capacitor MAY help".

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New Post 12-21-2006 01:43 PM
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IBBumpin
Member

 RE: RE: RE:

quote:
Originally posted on 12-21-2006 by N2Audio
I only know enough about caps to know I don't want, and certainly don't NEED one.

First and foremost
1) any well-designed amp should have all the internal capacitance it needs.

2) caps are storage devices - there IS no perfect storage device, so by definition, they bleed energy. RMS system voltage WILL be reduced by adding one.

3) many of them are so poorly designed (High/unspecified ESR, "ultra-low" doesn't cut it) they are completely useless.


This is obviously one of those topics that will never be resolved. Kinda like Ford vs Chevy or Alpine vs Kicker. Now im not going to try knock anyones opinion but as N2 said "caps are storage devices" So are batteries yet no-one seems to think adding an extra battery is a bad idea. Whenever I think about Caps my central air system in my house comes to mind. Even though the blower motor has plenty of voltage fed to it (AC voltage mind you) It will not be able to start spinning without a capacitor. (unless you wanna go out and push it yourself) Once its spinning it no longer needs the cap. The cap provides that extra "umph" to get it going. So when it comes to car audio one would think it would have the same effect, providing that extra umph. I verry well could be wrong but thats just what i think. Kinda like a car engine... you can have a million horsepower but if you dont have the Torque to back it up your still gonna lose the race.

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New Post 12-21-2006 04:05 PM
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N2Audio
Member

 RE: RE: RE: RE:

quote:
Originally posted on 12-21-2006 by IBBumpin
This is obviously one of those topics that will never be resolved. Kinda like Ford vs Chevy or Alpine vs Kicker. Now im not going to try knock anyones opinion but as N2 said "caps are storage devices" So are batteries yet no-one seems to think adding an extra battery is a bad idea. Whenever I think about Caps my central air system in my house comes to mind. Even though the blower motor has plenty of voltage fed to it (AC voltage mind you) It will not be able to start spinning without a capacitor. (unless you wanna go out and push it yourself) Once its spinning it no longer needs the cap. The cap provides that extra "umph" to get it going. So when it comes to car audio one would think it would have the same effect, providing that extra umph. I verry well could be wrong but thats just what i think. Kinda like a car engine... you can have a million horsepower but if you dont have the Torque to back it up your still gonna lose the race.

which is why any good amp has plenty of internal capacitance right on the voltage rails where it actually does some good.

FWIW - Batteries are fine if you listen with the engine off a lot, but with the engine running they're just more load. Even a fully charged battery will draw ~5A.

I've got nothing against caps or batteries, I just think it should be understood what they can and can't do before they're installed.

One thing I hope we can all agree on -- if you don't have a big enough alternator to power the stereo with enough left over to charge the starting battery all the extra batteries and caps in the world are only going to make it worse.

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New Post 12-21-2006 04:27 PM
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Merak
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Chief, c'mon lets hear what you think about caps. N2 makes some good points, lets hear the other side.

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New Post 12-21-2006 10:49 PM
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chiefaudiophile
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quote:
Originally posted on 12-21-2006 by Merak
Chief, c'mon lets hear what you think about caps. N2 makes some good points, lets hear the other side.

I have added them to installs with no other modification and had gains. I don't suggest them to my customers before upgrading chassis wiring and a HO alt is always recomended but my 15 Farad Alumapro had a serious gain when I added it as well.

I can say that mine is on a 300 amp relay, or solenoid. The turn-on lead is the same remote out I use for my amps and such. The thing charges in well under a second, you can hear it, it sounds like a camera flash charging after the heavy SNAP of the relay. 15 Farads in 1/2 a sec, or so, seams pretty quick to me.

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New Post 12-22-2006 09:22 AM
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LoudAssGeo
Member

 RE:

quote:
Originally posted on 12-22-2006 by chiefaudiophile
I have added them to installs with no other modification and had gains. I don't suggest them to my customers before upgrading chassis wiring and a HO alt is always recomended but my 15 Farad Alumapro had a serious gain when I added it as well.

I can say that mine is on a 300 amp relay, or solenoid. The turn-on lead is the same remote out I use for my amps and such. The thing charges in well under a second, you can hear it, it sounds like a camera flash charging after the heavy SNAP of the relay. 15 Farads in 1/2 a sec, or so, seams pretty quick to me.


with the chances of sounding stupid, what exactly do you mean a 300 amp relay? how is it used, installed, and what does it do? benefits?

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New Post 12-22-2006 09:49 AM
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